In this special bonus episode of Deep: The Health Marketing Podcast, host Jen Werther sits down with DeepIntent’s Carrie Craigmyle and Jen Loga to revisit some of the conversations that stuck with them most, from AI and outcomes-based measurement to patient understanding and the power of human storytelling. They also look ahead at what’s next for healthcare marketing.
The following transcript has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Jen Werther: Welcome to Deep: The Health Marketing Podcast. I’m Jen Werther, Head of Client Solutions here at DeepIntent. I’ve spent my career at the intersection of data and technology, helping solve business challenges for pharma marketers, and I’m excited to step into the host seat and be part of the conversation in a different way.
Over the past season, we’ve talked to innovators, publishers, leaders, and marketers from across the industry, and they’ve given us a lot to think about. So today, we’re doing something different and bringing in some of our own people.
I’m joined by Carrie Craigmyle, our SVP of Customer Success, and Jen Loga, our VP of Client Analytics. We’re going to revisit some of the best moments from the podcast, reflect on what we found interesting, and talk about the challenges and opportunities ahead for healthcare marketing.
Carrie and Jen, thanks so much for being here.
Jen Loga: This is exciting. I feel like we need Andy Cohen or some music to walk out to.
Jen Werther: Andy Cohen, if you want to come on this podcast, I’ll host you every day.
Carrie Craigmyle: Thrilled to be here. It feels like friends talking about last season, so I’m really looking forward to this one.
Jen Werther: Before we get into some specific moments from our guests, let’s talk more generally about Season 2. What’s one thing you learned that really stuck with you? Carrie, let’s start with you.
Carrie Craigmyle: One thing that came through loud and clear was health equity. I really appreciated that we gave the topic time, especially in our episode with Holly, but we heard it elsewhere too.
We spend a lot of time thinking about diagnosed and treating patients because those are often the people we have data on. But one thing that really stuck with me was the idea of the “invisible” patient, or even the caregiver, who may not show up in the data.
It made me think not only about who we’re targeting, but also who we might be missing. That’s something I think about a lot now when our teams go into briefs.
Jen Werther: Jen, what stuck with you?
Jen Loga: I’m an analytics person, so obviously the conversations around AI stood out. Mike Bregman talked about different AI personas, and it genuinely changed how I think about our team’s work.
It wasn’t necessarily the AI itself. It was the framing. We have real people using AI today, and the question isn’t simply, “Are we using AI?” It’s whether we’re giving different people the right tools for the way they actually work.
Another point that stuck with me was that AI isn’t only about artificial intelligence. It still depends on “real intelligence,” the human thinking that makes the output matter. I’ve caught myself repeating that ever since.
Jen Werther: That human piece is so important. There are so many advances happening with AI, but the opportunity isn’t simply to replace people. It’s to make work faster and easier, whether that means speeding up creative review, getting to insights faster, or taking some of the manual work out of the day-to-day.
What was one of the most inspiring or surprising things a guest said this season?
Carrie Craigmyle: Jameson Fleming said something I found really inspiring. He was relatively new to pharma when we spoke with him, and he pointed out that this is one of the few industries where every product we advertise can genuinely change someone’s life.
Whether we’re talking about insulin, cancer treatments, or something else entirely, there’s a person or family on the other side of the work. It was refreshing to hear that from someone coming into the industry with a newer perspective.
Jameson Fleming: Pharma has potentially the biggest storytelling advantage of any category. Every product you’re advertising, whether it’s a drug, an insulin dispenser, or something else, affects people on a deeply personal level. It can change lives, improve lives, even save lives.
I don’t think that element of storytelling shows up in healthcare advertising as much as it could.
Jen Loga: That outsider perspective was really interesting. Those of us who have been in the industry a long time can sometimes forget that.
Every product we work on has thousands of stories attached to it: people who got more time with their families, people who finally got the diagnosis they’d been chasing for years, people who got to watch their child grow up.
And that emotional part of storytelling is something AI can’t simply replicate.
Jen Werther: Especially in smaller disease states and rare disease, you really feel that. The work can have a tangible impact on someone’s life.
All right, one quick lightning-round question before we get into some of our favorite clips. What emoji best describes healthcare marketing right now?
Jen Loga: The one with the swirly eyes that looks a little crazy but is still smiling. So much has happened so quickly.
Carrie Craigmyle: Fire. The industry is on fire. Years ago, people used to say pharma was behind or lagging. I don’t think that’s true anymore. It’s an incredibly exciting time to be in the industry.
Jen Werther: For me, maybe mind blown, especially because of AI. Think about how differently we were using it even 12 or 24 months ago.
I’d also say a rocket ship. Everyone is incredibly busy, from agencies to manufacturers, and things aren’t slowing down.
Moving Beyond Vanity Metrics
Jen Werther: Let’s get into some of the highlights from Season 2, starting with technology, AI, and measurement.
Here’s Kate Gattuso Duffy from Pfizer.
Kate Gattuso Duffy: We’re shifting from vanity metrics like click-through rate and impressions to really optimizing on outcomes. We had to make that case, and I think we’re going to see the same thing happen as the industry starts talking more about real-time optimization.
Jen Werther: Jen, what comes to mind when you hear that?
Jen Loga: I’m excited that more brands and agencies are moving toward this approach. Metrics like CTR can have their place, but the industry is increasingly focused on outcomes.
Are people going on brand? Are they going to the doctor? Are they getting healthier?
Those are ultimately the things most brands care about. It’s not always about whether someone clicked on an ad.
Jen Werther: Carrie, you deal with clients every day. Are you seeing that shift toward outcomes-based measurement?
Carrie Craigmyle: Absolutely. There are still cases where CTR matters. If a pharma company is driving people to a website, for example, they’re going to care about traffic.
But the conversation has become much more sophisticated. Where are those clicks coming from? What happens afterward? How does that activity correlate with other measures of success?
The majority of our clients are moving toward outcomes-based measurement and optimization. Even clients that historically relied heavily on CTR are testing their way into it and comparing those results with third-party measurement. It’s encouraging to see that trust build.
Jen Werther: Ultimately, the question is whether the patient saw something relevant and whether it helped move them toward an appropriate treatment.
That connects to something Mukund Jain talked about when we discussed the convergence of HCP and consumer marketing.
Mukund Jain: You’ve traditionally had two tracks, HCP and DTC. That’s going to converge into a much more integrated ecosystem.
You’re also going to see more personalization and AI enter that connected approach. Personalization will be the connective tissue, and AI will enable real-time tailoring of content based on behavior, demographics, and context. That applies to patients and HCPs.
Carrie Craigmyle: We’re already seeing AI help our own teams get to data summaries faster and automate more of the reporting and analysis.
That means that by the time information reaches someone’s desk, they can spend more time focusing on the insight itself rather than all the manual work required to get there.
Jen Werther: I think of it like the way kids constantly ask, “Why?” You get an insight, and then you can ask: Why am I seeing this? What’s driving it? What’s underneath it?
AI makes it easier to keep interrogating the information.
Jen Loga: I agree, although I’ll admit I sometimes find the pace overwhelming. Every day there’s a new release, a new tool, or a new agentic capability.
The potential is enormous, but I find it helpful to step back and ask: What are the one or two problems we need to solve today? Where can AI actually help us?
It’s easy to get overwhelmed by everything AI could do. I think the more useful approach is to break the work into pieces, automate some of the tasks we don’t enjoy doing, and free people up for more strategic thinking.
AI and the Empowered Patient
Jen Werther: AI is also changing the patient experience. Recently, one of my kids had an MRI. I got the results before the doctor called and used ChatGPT to help me understand what they were saying.
More and more people are walking into doctors’ offices having already done research and prepared questions.
Jen Loga: I’m excited about that because it can strengthen patient self-advocacy.
A patient might have a test result or a report that they’ve used AI to help interpret in plain language. They can bring that information to their doctor and ask better questions, especially if they feel like they haven’t been heard or they don’t fully understand an answer they received.
That has a lot of potential in rare disease, where people can spend years trying to find answers.
Jen Werther: We’ve moved beyond typing a symptom into Google and getting a million results. People can provide much more context: when something started, what they’re experiencing, how symptoms have changed. Then they can use that information to have a more productive conversation with their physician.
Data Still Has to Serve a Human Strategy
Jen Werther: Let’s shift from technology and AI to the human side of data. Here’s Bill Veltre from Deerfield Group.
Bill Veltre: At the end of the day, the vehicle and the channel don’t matter if you don’t have a good communication strategy.
You have to understand the audience, understand how they’re going to receive the message, and make sure the way you’re communicating is going to land effectively.
Jen Werther: Carrie, what does that bring to mind for you?
Carrie Craigmyle: It comes back to really understanding the patient. Not only what they’ve been diagnosed with or what they’re treating with, but what they’re actually going through.
Take migraine, for example. What moments might trigger symptoms? Where might someone be? What might be happening in their life?
That understanding influences the communication strategy. Maybe there’s an opportunity around digital out of home during a stressful shopping season. Maybe it’s around weddings or other major events.
Bill’s point is that it isn’t simply about choosing a vehicle. It’s when we show up, how we show up, and what kind of message someone needs at that moment. Are we educating them? Are we further down the funnel and encouraging them to talk with a doctor?
There’s so much more data available to help us understand patients, and AI can accelerate some of that learning. For media planners, that creates a real opportunity to bring those insights to life and make every strategy smarter.
Jen Werther: Moments that matter.
Jen Loga: Another Season 2 conversation that stuck with me was with Erin Nocito. She talked about the sense of purpose that comes from knowing the work you’re doing can directly affect people’s lives.
Erin Nocito: I was working on a part of the Lilly portfolio focused on diabetes treatments during COVID. These were patients who really needed to stay safe and needed access to their medication.
There was freedom in knowing you were doing that kind of work because it allowed you to see beyond the day-to-day meetings. There was a bigger purpose behind it.
Jen Loga: For a patient, the urgency is different.
We also heard that from Jameson. Every product in this industry has the potential to change or save a life. Erin’s story made the human element of what we do feel very personal.
The Power of One Human Story
Jen Werther: Let’s end on storytelling, because this season was full of great stories.
Jameson talked about healthcare’s enormous storytelling opportunity and pointed to Pfizer’s Super Bowl advertising as an example.
Jameson Fleming: They focused on a real story, a real kid, and showed his triumph over cancer. It resonated with people.
There were still criticisms about pharma advertising during the Super Bowl, but the story spoke to the audience in a way that was incredibly powerful.
Jen Loga: Jameson handed us the lesson on a platter: You don’t win people over with scale alone. You win them over one story at a time.
It can be one child going through a cancer journey who now has a full life ahead of them. A singular story can make a huge difference to a mass audience.
Carrie Craigmyle: That’s the example that came to mind for me too. Seeing a child walking through those hospital hallways after coming through treatment is something you remember.
Throughout the season, we kept coming back to those human stories. Sometimes one person brings an idea to life in a way no amount of data or scale can.
Jen Werther: Humanizing the story really does make a difference. Those are the ads you remember.
Looking Ahead
Jen Werther: Let’s wrap up with a lightning round. What do you think is going to be the next big buzzword?
Carrie Craigmyle: Agentic AI.
Jen Loga: I’m already tired of hearing it.
Carrie Craigmyle: Agents, agents, agents.
Jen Werther: Which Season 2 guest would win Survivor?
Jen Loga: Bill. He was a first-grade teacher. If you can control a room full of first graders, you can win Survivor.
Carrie Craigmyle: I’d say Holly. She’s incredibly strategic and works across so many different pharma companies, but she’s also calm as a cucumber. I could see her coming in for the win.
Jen Werther: Biggest workplace pet peeve?
Carrie Craigmyle: Lack of context. What is this meeting? Why am I here? What do you expect from me?
We’re all jumping from meeting to meeting, and you need enough context to reset, prepare, and add value. Without it, you create inefficiency.
Jen Loga: Meetings that could have been an email.
And honestly, that connects to Carrie’s answer. If you take the time to think through the context and what you need from each person, sometimes you realize you didn’t need a meeting in the first place.
Jen Werther: Mine is cameras off during meetings. If we’re presenting, I want to see a nod, a thumbs-up, a reaction. Give me something.
Last question: favorite wearable?
I’m an Apple Watch person. I track my steps every day.
Carrie Craigmyle: I have an Oura Ring. I like being able to look at stress and sleep and understand how they’re affecting me. Even if it doesn’t necessarily make me sleep better, it makes me more aware.
Jen Loga: I have an Oura Ring too, but I forget to look at the app. I used to have a Fitbit, and I liked that it would tell me when I’d been sitting too long. I apparently need the wearable to tell me what to do.
Jen Werther: Awareness matters. I’m going to join you both and get the Oura Ring.
Carrie and Jen, thank you so much for joining me for this Season 2 recap. And to everyone listening, stay tuned. We can’t wait to share what’s coming next on Deep: The Health Marketing Podcast.
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